PICKERINGTON CITY COUNCIL
CITY HALL, 100 LOCKVILLE ROAD
TUESDAY, MAY 19, 2009
COUNCIL WORK
SESSION
9:05 P.M.
1. CALL TO ORDER: Mayor O’Brien opened the Council Work Session
at 9:05 P.M., with the following council members present: Mrs. Sanders, Mr. Fix, Mr. Smith, Mr. Sauer,
Mrs. Hammond, Mr. Sabatino, Mr. Wisniewski, and Mayor O’Brien. No members were absent. Others present were: Tim Hansley, Lynda Yartin, and Phil
Hartmann.
2. SCHEDULED MATTERS:
A. Review
and discussion of proposed changes to City Charter. Mayor O’Brien stated before getting into the
particular sections of the Charter he would like to talk about the
procedure. He stated the current changes
are still in Committee and that is what Council is discussing. He stated at the last work session it was
stated that there would be no changes made by Council but their comments would
be logged and presented to the Charter Review Commission with whatever Rules
Committee votes out of Committee. Mr.
Smith stated he understood that if there were a consensus around a change, it
would be included in the Rules Committee recommended changes. Mr. Sabatino inquired how you would know if
there were a consensus if it is not voted on.
Mr. Smith stated Rules Committee is where it would be voted on. Mr. Sabatino stated the proposed changes have
been voted on in Rules Committee, and Mr. Fix stated individually as each item
came up Rules Committee took a committee roll call on each individual item
within Rules Committee. He stated Rules
Committee has not voted on the comprehensive changes. Mr. Sabatino stated they were voted on to be
presented to Council and Mr. Smith stated that is what is being done now. Mr. Smith stated he wasn’t sure if that could
be called a vote of record because there was no legislation to forward anything
to Council from Rules.
Mr. Sabatino stated the minutes do not
reflect all the commentary that took place during the last work session. Mayor O’Brien stated he just wanted to get a
clear understanding of the process going forward with this as far as
changes. He stated an example of a
change Mr. Hartmann did make was when Mr. Wisniewski caught the “at least six
votes” where “at least” was taken out, so if seven votes were cast the issue
could fail because it did not have exactly six votes. He stated Mr. Hartman had put that back in,
and that was the question, is it grammatical changes, is it substantive
changes, or what is it that we are looking to do to ultimately bring to Council
to vote on. Mr. Sabatino stated his question
was what repository of comments is there because if it is the minutes they do
not reflect all of the commentary there was.
Mayor O’Brien stated he was looking at if these changes were to be
converted into agenda items at Council, that would be an hour or more on just
Sections I, II, and III. He questioned
if they wanted to agree to produce a product here to go to Council that has at
least four votes out of here, or what was the process.
Mr. Fix stated the process was not to go to
Council; it was to go to the Charter Review Commission. Mr. Smith stated Rules Committee would send
it to Council and Council would send it to the Commission. Mr. Fix stated he did not feel that was
correct. Mr. Hartmann stated the concern
is when you put the Charter Review Commission together, and they complete their
review, it must be submitted as is to the electors by Council, so you wouldn’t
have a chance to make changes, so he would view it as the Rules Committee sends
it to Council for input, but usually how this goes, you don’t have a committee
that reviews the Charter prior to a Commission being appointed, it just goes to
the Commission. He stated this is a
little out of the norm, and you can have the procedure just about any way you
want. Mr. Fix stated what was originally
intended when Rules started this review was that instead of just throwing it on
the table to a Charter Review Commission, was for Rules Committee to go
through, line by line, and make recommendations, then get a consensus of
Council, and that consensus of Council would be presented to a Charter Review
Commission, so they were not starting from scratch but rather from a point
where Council has had an opportunity to provide input. He stated how we reach the consensus of
Council is what he thought was now in question.
Mr. Sabatino stated his question was when Mr. Fix stated what was
originally intended, who originally intended?
Mr. Fix stated it was Mr. Sabatino, Mr. Smith, and himself who were on
Rules Committee at that time. Mr.
Hartmann stated what he would suggest is that Council looks at the Charter and
makes suggestions, it goes back to Rules Committee, they make changes based on
what they get from Council, and then it goes back to Council with an ordinance
to adopt. Mr. Fix stated that was not
correct because Council cannot take any action on it, it has to go to the
Charter Review Commission. Mayor O’Brien
stated then it would go directly from Rules to a Charter Review Commission
without Council consensus. Mr. Fix
stated you could just throw the Charter on the table, form a Commission, and
let them go. Mr. Sabatino stated that is
how it was done the two previous times it has been done. Mr. Fix stated he felt that is why we have so
many issues we have. Mr. Fix stated the
thought process was not for Council to take a vote on it, but that we would
meet as a Council and come to a consensus on it. Mayor O’Brien stated he would like to know
the Clerk’s thoughts on the process as to what we would do with this document
and if we were going to send something to a Commission. Mrs. Yartin stated she understood after
Council’s review it would go from Rules Committee to Council where you would
get a vote on the record that they concur with the recommendations, and once
the Charter Review Commission completes their review it would be forwarded to
the electors. Mr. Fix stated then did
Council want to have the debate now on each individual item so that when it
does get to Council it wouldn’t take hours to debate these items in Council
session. Mr. Sabatino stated at the last
work session Mr. Smith had indicated that all of the comments of Council would
be presented, but if the basis for presenting the comments is the minutes, they
don’t accurately reflect all of the comments that were made on each individual
item as it moved through the last work session.
Mr. Smith stated Rules Committee had asked Mr. Hartmann to preserve
comments as each section was reviewed.
Mrs. Yartin stated when preparing the minutes she includes all
substantive comments, but unless the minutes were verbatim not every comment
could be included. Mr. Sabatino stated
that was his point.
Mr. Fix suggested Council have a discussion
on the points of contention and come to a consensus or not, and Mr. Wisniewski
stated they had already reviewed several sections where he thought they were
making comments, so they would have to go back and start at the beginning. Mr. Fix stated that was correct, go through
anything that was a point of contention and either come to a consensus or not so
that when it went to Council floor they could vote on it. Mr. Smith stated then Mr. Fix was suggesting
they go back to the beginning and have as many up or down votes as they did in
Rules on each and every item. Mr. Fix
stated he felt that was what must be done.
Mr. Hansley stated that if you do a straw
vote in the work session, which you can do, then it goes back to Rules and a
complete document would come out of Rules to Council. He questioned if Council would vote on the
whole document or would it go back to individual sections, or what. Mr. Hansley stated when this goes back to
Rules Committee, that Committee could choose to ignore all of the
comments. Mr. Sabatino stated the
problem was that all council members had certain things they were concerned
about, and if it is a straight up or down vote on the entire thing, he felt
everyone could find a reason to vote against it. Mr. Fix stated then perhaps we should just
scrap the whole thing and give it to the Charter Commission as it is. Mr. Sauer clarified that Rules Committee has
completed their review. Mr. Smith stated
Rules Committee was asking for the work sessions to get input from
Council. Mr. Sauer stated at some point,
in one fashion or another, this must come before Council and Mr. Sabatino
stated it does not. Mr. Sauer stated the
way it was set up by Rules Committee, the logical path would be to pass out of
Rules Committee, go before a Council committee, hash out the differences, send
it Council, vote on it either up or down, and then send it to the Charter
Review Commission. He stated that would
be instead of going from Rules Committee to a Council work session, back to
Rules where it may be addressed or ignored, and then send it to Council where
it could be argued over and then would either die or go on. Mr. Smith stated that was what he was
suggesting, that after the work sessions Rules Committee will put a document
together based on all the comments they heard, and incorporate consensus where
they could, and send it to Council for an up or down vote. Mr. Sabatino questioned what library it would
come from to create these comments that you heard. Mr. Smith stated he knew Mr. Sabatino
disagreed, but he felt the minutes are as good a place as any. Mr. Sabatino stated he did not think that
sufficed. Mr. Sauer stated he agreed a
lot with what Mr. Sabatino was saying, in that when you have an official
document that came out of Rules and Council and next to it you have a book of
notes which really doesn’t get you into the full debate if someone doesn’t read
it from cover to cover, and for someone who is not completely into government
as most of Council is, the intricacies are not really going to be
recognized. He stated he felt it would
be a better idea to get a consensus from Council, that at least four or five
members, hopefully seven members, and be able to move on with this. He stated otherwise when it gets to Council
it will just get blasted.
Mr. Hansley stated he would like to remind
everyone that at between 90 to 95 percent of what is being proposed to help the
Commission with are housekeeping changes, such as changing “Yea” to “Yes.” He stated there were maybe seven to nine
questions that would take some time to debate, such as what to do with the
Office of the Mayor. Mr. Wisniewski
stated if we could put the 90 to 95 percent of the items that were housekeeping
items in one document, then individually debate the other items. Mr. Smith stated the idea in Rules was to do
a majority consensus based on the work sessions, and recognizing there would be
strong dissenting opinions over very specific things, and those dissenting
opinions would go forward so they are at least considered by the Review
Commission. He stated he would also
assume the Charter Review Commission would ask for input and perhaps even call
council members to give their views before them. Mr. Sabatino questioned of the last two
Charter Review Commissions we have had, neither of them having had any
preparatory work done for them, what the number of members of each of those and
how were they selected. Mrs. Yartin
stated one of the Commissions had seven members and, if she recalled correctly,
one had five members. She stated
applications were solicited from the residents, and then Rules Committee
interviewed all applicants and forwarded a recommendation of appointment to
Council.
Mayor O’Brien stated then there were two
possible paths to follow. One is to go
through the housekeeping changes and then set them aside. Then going through and reviewing the remainder
and providing their thoughts or making recommendations on the substantive
changes. He questioned if that was
something that should be done in writing, take the time to go through, make the
comments, and then come back and deliberate those comments, agree on the areas
they want to discuss and those they don’t want to discuss. He stated if this could be separated into two
manageable sections and agree on the housekeeping, that would be off the
agenda. He continued stating they could
then take the others and decide which sections they really wanted to dig into
and then consolidate those into what they wanted to discuss. Mrs. Sanders stated she liked the idea of
breaking it apart because a lot of work has gone into this, and this would make
it easier for the Commission. Mr. Smith
stated he felt this was being made overly complicated because either way every
section of the Charter would be reviewed.
He stated he felt it would be only fair do this in a work session where
everyone would have the opportunity to comment and it would be on the record
and covered in the minutes. He stated
the three members of Rules would be listening, and they would take these
comments back before they would submit a consensus document back to Council
based on the input. He stated the whole
idea of the work session was to give the Committee input so they could
recommend a document to Council. Mr.
Smith further stated during a good portion of last year, four members of
Council were present at Rules Committee while the Charter was being
reviewed. He stated he felt this was
halfway finished and the process we have now is a workable process. Mr. Wisniewski stated part of the problem as
he saw it is that there are things that would definitely have fireworks. He stated he would prefer to have something
that can come out of Council with a unanimous vote, which would be the 95
percent changes. He stated if there are
things where there is dissention he would prefer to pull those out, leave the Charter
as is, and then have Council’s comments go forward. Mr. Fix stated he wanted to make sure he
understood, because he thought what Mayor O’Brien was saying made sense. He stated each council member would go through
the Charter, pick out the pieces they felt were worthy of debate, and write up
your thoughts on what your stance is on that particular part of the
charter. Then all the other stuff, the
95 percent, council would agree to and that would be done. He stated then in a work session they would
debate, and all of the written thoughts would be submitted as part of the
record and could be submitted to the Charter Commission, so there is no
question where anyone stood on each of the issues. Mr. Smith stated he would have no problem
voting on a document as recommended by a majority of Rules at Council and then
on to the Charter Review Commission. He
stated he would not vote against it because of one or two areas that he might
happen to disagree with. Mr. Fix stated
he applauded that, but he felt there were others who would feel that in good
conscience they could not vote for it without having the opportunity to debate
it. Mr. Fix stated he felt this is just
a different way of doing exactly that, by asking everyone submit their comments
in writing rather than relying on minutes or the law director’s notes, everyone
would have the responsibility to submit their own thoughts in writing. Mr. Smith stated at the Council meeting
earlier tonight the minutes of the last work session were voted on, and he
believed they were adopted unanimously as being accurate. Mr. Fix stated in order to avoid verbatim
minutes, or anyone from feeling they did not get everything they wanted on
paper somewhere for the Charter Review Commission, he was suggesting that everyone
take the time to put their thoughts in writing.
Mr. Sabatino stated there would still have to be a discussion. Mr. Fix stated that was correct, but with the
comments in writing everyone would know that their point of view would be
presented to the Charter Review Commission.
Mr. Wisniewski clarified that everyone would present his or her
comments, thoughts, etc., in writing, to Mrs. Yartin, and she would forward a
complete package of everyone’s comments to all of Council. Mr. Wisniewski stated he did not know if two
weeks would be enough time to get this done if we wanted to review it at the
next Council meeting. Mr. Fix stated
perhaps a Council work session could be scheduled to immediately follow the
July 7th, regular council meeting.
He stated that would allow everyone time to do a thorough review and
forward his or her comments to Mrs. Yartin by June 30, 2009. Mrs. Hammond stated she would like to ensure
that everyone was working off of the same document because there had been many
versions considered by Rules Committee.
Mr. Hartmann stated he would forward the most recent version and related
documents to all of Council so everyone would be working off of the same
document.
Mayor O’Brien clarified that it was the
consensus of Council that all council members would individually review the
Charter, prepare written comments on the changes and their thoughts on them,
provide them to Mrs. Yartin who would prepare a complete package and forward it
to Council for debate at a Council Work Session immediately following Council
on July 7, 2009.
3. ADJOURNMENT. There being nothing further, the Council Work
Session closed at 9:40 P.M., May 19, 2009.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED:
______________________________
Lynda D. Yartin, Municipal Clerk
ATTEST:
_______________________________
Mitch O’Brien, Mayor